Vaping Diaries #104: Doc Dave Cloning Controversy

94 thoughts on “Vaping Diaries #104: Doc Dave Cloning Controversy”

1. Why is this so hard to understand? The guy spent all of his time and money on this product and then someone comes in and tries to undercut him. He has the right to stop any and all (including group buys) sales of someone counterfeiting his product.

   1. He has an application, which really doesn’t give him any power. If he really wanted to stop the sales and had the proper legal backing then he should go after the manufacturer rather than the consumer.

      1. Organizers of group buys are considered distributors as they are the ones that receive the money, place the order, receive the bulk shipment and then distribute it to individuals. I work for U.S. Customs and if we are instructed by the Department of Commerce to look for certain trademark, copyright and patent violations, we go after the person importing the item as they violated U.S. laws. We could care less about the person overseas who sent them as they are not here in the U.S. and they are not of our concern. U.S. Patents protect products sold here in the U.S., there’s nothing a U.S. Patent can do about something that is done overseas. Doc Dave, if and when his patent is approved, has all the rights bestowed upon him by the U.S. Patent office and all applicable laws to press charges against groups, individuals, companies that import and distribute counterfeits of his patented products. Going after chinese manufacturers is mission impossible. If huge multi million dollar corporations like Louis Vuitton can’t do it, then certainly the small guys can’t either. That’s the reason for “U.S.” patents because all we can do is enforce law here, because going after some guy in China is just mission impossible.

      2. Okay, so until the patent is granted — if it’s granted at all — then should Doc Dave be threatening anyone with legal action?

      3. This is America. Anyone can sue anyone for whatever reason they want, patent or not. The burden of proof lies on the “defendant” who needs to convince the judge why he shouldn’t be sued. But does a group buy organizer really want to go through the hassles of a court summons?

      4. You’d have to ask the individual group organizers. Several of them appear to be proceeding as planned.

      5. The burden of proof lies on the prosecution.

      6. It’s not threatening… that is how to leagally proceed. He must give notice of his patent application and then if or when his patent is approved. He is entitled to collect for every unit that person has sold back dating to the time he notified them of his application.

      7. USPTO says, “The protection afforded by a patent does not start until the actual grant of the patent.” Is that not correct?

      8. yes that is correct, but if he gives the person notice of his
         application, then if and when his patent is approved. He then can
         legally collect for all units sold back dating to time of the notice he gave the person informing them of his application being filed

      9. Someone pointed me to this snippet, “Damages are calculated from the time two prerequisites are met. The first is that the application is published, which typically happens 18 months after it is first filed or when the patent is granted. The second is that the infringer has received either “constructive” or ‘actual’ notice.” That differs from your information. Which is correct? http://www.galvanilegal.com/what-does-patent-pending-mean

2. Supply and demand. If people show interest in the clones, then the Chinese will continue to supply it. Reduce the demand and the they will stop production.

   By the way, these are counterfeits, not clones. Clones are copies and re-branded under another name. These are mirror images of the original Steam Turbine and being sold under the name Steam Turbine. Regardless of the legal issues, it’s just morally wrong whether you’re the person making it or the person buying it.

   I can’t believe you’re actually trying to justify the counterfeits with your ignorant logic.

   That whole “experiment before committing to a real Steam Turbine” line is bullshit. People who buy clones buy clones because they can’t afford the real deal. There’s no difficulty reselling a real Steam Turbine and getting your money back, or even flipping it for a profit if you don’t like it.

   Also that line about “They’re trying to help people stick with vaping and quit smoking” is a crock of shit. People don’t need Steam Turbine clones to quit smoking. If they want a way to vape on a budget, they can go buy themselves a $15 AGA-T.

   1. I’m not trying to justify counterfeits at all. I’m saying that his issue should be with companies like Hcigar and not individuals like Mr. Smith.

      1. You can’t just blame China in these cases. The distributors and suppliers have just as much guilt as the Chinese. It is a known fact that a lot of the clones have made it to the market as a result of requests made by suppliers. China does not pick and choose what to clone on it’s own, the suppliers have just as much to do with gets ripped off as companies like H-Cigar do.

   2. I bought a Sigelei #20 to try out the form-factor. I know it’s not a counterfeit Roller (1:1 copy), but it’s a close enough copy to be considered a clone. After using the #20 for a number of months, I decided to buy the Roller. SO… In my case the copy generated a sale for the real product.
      As to atties, I’ve not yet purchased a “real” clone, so I’m out on that argument. I own a couple of ‘High-End’ devices, a bunch of Youde products, and couple of the cheaper ‘starter’ gennys that got me into genisis (sic) vaping.

      1. Thanks for sharing that. There are consumers like you, whether people want to believe it or not. Certainly many people buy clones because that’s what they can afford. There are also people like you that use clones as a beta test to see if the real thing is what they want. Cheers!

         Genisis — To be fair, that how Raidy spelled. He created the thing so he can spell it any way he wants. :)

      2. Yep… & most times, whether I have the money or not…. flat out can’t get the real deal, no matter how much I F5. Been trying for 3 different DNA20 mods since APRIL & an iHybrid just as long! (ridiculous, imho) Tho I don’t post all over complaining– & drool as I watch videos of SO many who somehow DO get them, it’s just what it is. So, for me…. it’s about “availability”. If there was a clone available, would I buy it? At this point—- bet ur a$$ I would! Now, is it “morally” right to 1:1 clone, anything? Imho, absolutely NOT! DD wasn’t speaking about a moral issue tho.. So, legally.. & in every other way, I have to totally agree w/ every point you’ve made, Raymond! You are absolutely correct about where the arrow has been shot, so to speak! He’s pissed, in a panic… & is grasping at straws at this point. Unfortunately, his pat. app… is simply a day late & a dollar short. Despite that tho…. by hitting who he has… I’m sure he’s hoping to stop or scare anyone from buying at this point, since that would still be ONE – not sold, ya know? The scare-tactics wouldn’t work on me… lol …. but for many, it will. The legal costs, to go after these Chinese manufacturers, would be astronomical, & prob not in his best interests. He knows that… which is why he went the direction he did. . ~I admire your courage to keep posting/replying.. & for doing the right thing. Thanks for airing this. =) Vape on, my friend.

      3. Thanks for reading and for making interesting points in a respectful way. I really appreciate the discourse. It’s a fun and interesting discussion to have.

      4. More like they want what they cannot afford.

3. That still doesn’t explain why he is lashing out at consumers. And, legally speaking, there isn’t anything he can do. I’m kind of disgusted by his tactics. Thats just not the way you go about dealing with these issues.

   1. So is it safe to say if you create a product you would be fine with someone making an exact copy although cheaper material and selling it cheaper? Funny how people would change their tune if it where to happen to them……..

      1. That’s not the issue. Doc Dave’s gripe with cloners is legitimate, whether he can do anything about it legally or not. The issue is why attack consumers?

      2. Consumer demand fuels chinese cloners. That’s why.

      3. So by that logic, it should be perfectly legitimate for the owners of . . . let’s say, Sony . . . to harass people buying Vizio TV’s that look exactly like one of their’s and that have the same functions. Right?

      4. Who is the consumer being attacked? The person running the group buy? This person is known legally as the distributor.

   2. Because demand creates supply. If no one wanted them, then no one would produce them. This applies to everything in this world. You think Louis Vuitton goes after the Chinese factory that knocks-off their bags? No, they go after the importers and distributors here in the U.S. This IS the way to go about dealing with these issues.

      1. If you create a group buy you become a distributor. Simple to understand isn’t it?

      2. Look you half-wit, if he wanted to “protect his product”, then he should have waited until the patent cleared. His fault. No one else’s. I can’t stand people that blame others for their own mistakes.

      3. That’s not how law works. He can prove intellectual property. Here in the US that is more than enough and is held up in court just as often as patents.

      4. Is that really your response? You’ve resorted to name calling? lolol Enough said, you’ve proved my point for me. Now go get a job and maybe you’ll be able to afford the real thing.

      5. having a Job doesn’t automatically make it so you can afford a <$200 atty. I've worked at machine shops and know exactly how much it costs to make these overpriced mods and atty's and it's certainly not good practice to charge greater than a 100% increase in cost to make a buck. I've got a "job" and could never afford one of these overpriced things but would gladly purchase a chinese clone specifically because it's within my "budget" Try to understand what it means to have little means and not have a ton of disposable income to waste on something like these.

      6. The chief difference being that Louis Vuitton actually has a trademark rather than an application for one.

      7. Exactly.

      8. US Law. The minute his design was put on file, dated, and time stamped at the machine shop it became his intellectual property. He can prove that the designs are his and US law protects intellectual property the same as they do a patent or a trademark.

      9. on file…. dated…. time stamped…….. All after the product came out (& from China.. good luck, regardless. Would cost him more in legal fees) A day late & a dollar short, unfortunately. :(

      10. So because Doc doesn’t have a piece of paper with a stamp on it means its morally OK to steal his hard work? Because that’s the whole debate. “Patent Pending but its not granted yet” so hurry up and steal as much as you can before its granted? I just don’t get it. Simply put he’s protecting his effort as best he can. Put yourself in his shoes, if you put 6 months of effort into something and someone stole it out from under you how would you feel? What would you do, lay down?

      11. That’s not at all the point I’m debating. Read the first paragraph again and you’ll see that I think creators that are cloned have a legitimate issue.

      12. No one said anything about it being morally right… “Legally” speaking, he’s not only going about it the wrong way—– but is aiming his anger/disgust at the completely wrong party. Legally, he doesn’t have a foot to stand on! Had he even applied for said patent, before all this………… he might (& even that’s pushing it) have a toe or something, to wobble on…. As it stands, however, crappy as it may be for someone to put out exact copies of his product; from a legal standpoint, (esp. if it’s coming from China) …. good luck. Unfortunately, DD is grasping at straws in a panic. He’s directing his anger at whomever he can reach in an attempt to scare (& therefore prevent) anyone…. from buying one! Sadly, a day late & a dollar short, Doc.

      13. Is it OK for Doc to steal other peoples hard work???

          Because Doc STOLE the Genesis design from what was originally open source ( Zen is the original thief). He has no grounds to patent another individuals work. Whats happening to Doc at the moment is exactly what he did to someone previously. If you want to stand behind your friend you really should spend the time to educate yourself on the facts so you don’t look like a fool. Lower cost copies fill a price point void in the market, if you can’t fill the void or product enough to supply the demand you will be copied. Lashing out at the consumer is stupid and unwarranted.

      14. There is a big difference between going after distributors and going after consumers. I never said I support the theft of intellectual property. I just think his tactics of threatening consumers is stupid. Going after group buy organizers is dumb. And not the way to treat people. If you disagree with my point of view, thats fine. But that doesn’t give you the right to publicly call me an idiot. And the issue remains that China is going to continue cloning these small run, insanely expensive devices. You can love it or you can hate it, but it’s here to stay. How a small business like his handles that will determine the longevity of his company. Right now, I believe he’s doing himself a disservice by attacking potential future customers. Just saying…

   3. He has the right to stop all sales or sue for damages. Whether it’s sold by a store or not. A group buy isn’t an excuse to allow sales. Protecting his product is not lashing out at consumers. If you like the Turbine buy it. If you don’t know one cares.

      1. An application doesn’t give you those rights. A granted patent does.

4. Personally, I was going to buy from Doc. But now that I’m aware of his customer service practices and the fact that he wasn’t smart enough to WAIT UNTIL THE PATENT CLEARS, there’s no chance in hell I’d ever do business with him. Look at that illiterate letter that he wrote, he clearly isn’t that intelligent to begin with. Good with metals? Sure. Not so much on the writing skills though and while most people these days don’t think writing is important, it’s speaks wonders as to a person’s ability to conduct themselves in a proper manner. Besides, I may have mentioned his first mistake already: that he WASN’T SMART ENOUGH TO WAIT UNTIL THE PATENT CLEARED!!

   Look, you can’t shoot yourself in the foot and then run around blaming everyone else for your mistake. There’s no honor or logic in that. He knew damn well that the Chinese clone EVERYTHING. So by not waiting until the patent cleared before selling his product, he asked for it and I have no sympathy for him.

   Better luck next time Doc.

   1. I may not be great at the English language either but I can tell you that he has the ability to prove intellectual property and that is almost always upheld in court the same as a patent. It is more than enough to pursue legal action and I for one am glad that he is. It is about time that a US modder stood up for his product. You can’t go after China but you can stop group buys, retailers and even have them taken by customs (easy to do when you know the sender and their address). How are people not more upset with the people doing the group buy. Dave is protecting his property the only way that he physically can and people seem to be taking the side of the people trying to purchase what is essentially stolen property.

   2. that is how to leagally proceed. He must give notice of his patent application and then if or when his patent is approved. He is entitled to collect for every unit that person has sold back dating to the time he notified them of his application

5. Doc has every right to be angry and to try to stop the theft of his great attys. He is a stand up guy and will go out of his way to make his customers happy. I have bought multiple Attys from him and his customer service is excellent. for someone like Mira to say he has bad customer service is stupid. have you even bought anything from him or dealt with him? NO! didn’t think so.

   Doc Dave is one of the hardest working and genuine guys in the industry and he’s getting f***ed over by Chinese cloners. Look at the situation from his point of view. He is just trying to protect his work. I will be a faithful supporter for life

   1. Again, I’m not disputing that he should have an issue with Chinese cloners. That’s absolutely legitimate. I’m saying that it’s misguided to go after consumers.

      1. What you aren’t understanding is he is going after the distributor. The person running the group buy is now a distributor whether you like it or not.

      2. I understand that just fine. I believe there’s a difference between going after a formal distributor (corporation, LLC) and an individual. I maintain that it’s misguided.

      3. RPadTV, you really should go and read a dictionary sometime.

         1. “A consumer is a person or group of people, such as a household, who are the final users of products or services.”

         2. (Business / Commerce) a wholesaler or middleman engaged in the distribution of a category of goods, esp to retailers in a specific area.

         I guess it’s true what they say about the internet. Anyone can make a website, no matter how stupid they are.

      4. Well, at least I’m not a coward making insults behind an alias. Like I said in another post, people like Mr. Smith are consumers. He’s not an S-corp or LLC that makes money importing goods from China. There’s a big difference between taking action against businesses and taking action against small, community-organized buys.

6. You can’t go after a company like Hcigar. US patent law and intelectual property law will not hold up in china. It would cost tens of thousands of dollars any you would lose. He never wanted to go after the group buy. The group organizer CC invited him to the group and forced his hand. If they had just kept to themselves he wouldn’t have cared about the group buy at all. This is the result of people like CC being inconsiderate and just rude. He really had no intention of blocking this clone at all. This is a result of a very rude person who descided she wanted to make this personal attack against Dave. He wasn’t even in the group until she put him in there to bash him.

   1. He has a right to protect his property and after the personal attack that was made against him based completely under false claims can you really blame him. I’m sure people here would be happy to provide you with screen shots of the inappropriate things CC and her group were saying and then maybe you will understand what really happened in this avoidable incident. Like I said all she had to do was act like a grown women and her group buy would have gone off without incident or action.

      1. You or anyone else is absolutely welcomed to post screen shots here. Again, I don’t know the details of what happened between those two.

      2. It has turned into so much more than that though. This is the first time a US vendor is standing up for his product and the only thing that is happening is people are getting mad at him for it. You can’t go after China it’s not possible. The only way to stop this is to stop these group buys and to stop stores from selling the replicas. Everyone seems to be all over Dave like its his fault that people are stealing from him. No matter the reason its about time a US Modder defended his product.

      3. I mean lets be honest. No one is arguing that these replicas are ok. We all seem to agree that shameless replicas are wrong. So why is it wrong that he is going after US entities that are trying to sell this product?

      4. It’s bad PR. Going after a large distributor or retailer is one thing. Going after group-buy organizers is like an adult picking a fight with a kid.

      5. I just don’t get it. Why are you defending the group buy? It is essentially a group of people organizing to purchase a stolen product. The fact that people don’t see anything wrong with buying this is the problem not that Dave is trying to stop them from being able to.

      6. I disagree that it’s stolen. Besides, all Genesis atomizers are variations of Raidy’s original design. That design was open-source for not-for-profit use. Do you think Doc Dave should be paying royalties to him?

      7. That’s like saying all car companies should pay royalties to Ford for the Model T. The situation we are in right now is more like someone took the Corvette and and copied it 1:1 and started selling it as the Toyota Corvette. Even if it wasn’t TM and patented I promise a court of law would still see this as theft and a violation of intellectual property law.

      8. Your example doesn’t hold at all. The difference in the inner workings of modern cars and the Model T is vast. Certainly some improvements have been made from Raidy’s original design, but not nearly as significant as the gap you mentioned. Furthermore, the Model T wasn’t an open-source design.

      9. Doc Dave and really every person who has made a “Genisis” (how Raidy spelled it) has stolen their design from Raidy. He specifically said “All my mods may be reproduced for non-commercial purposes. Commercial reproduction is not allowed without my consent. I refer to the copyright.” Doc has done EXACTLY that. Now he wants to get aggro because some did the same thing to him? Here is a link to Raidy’s post. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modding-forum/132663-all-my-mods-part1.html Page 24 is his warning and that is dated when? Houston we have a problem. Oh and by the way Ford had a HUGE legal battle over his model T because it violated patents by another man who had built a gasoline engine in germany, and then sold it to a lawyer named Seldon. It was a huge legal battle. Also all of the auto manufactures at the time DID PAY ROYALTIES to Seldon.

      10. It’s not the first time. Rip Tripper also threatened group buy organizers. Notcigs tried to (and still may be in the process of) go after people making VV vaping devices with a patent pending. There are likely numerous examples that I haven’t heard of.

   2. I’m only vaguely aware of what happened between Doc Dave and CC, but wouldn’t that make the situation even more ridiculous? Are you telling me that he’s going to spend a lot of money and time to try to stop a few hundred people from buying clones because of a personal dispute?

7. Well supply and demand play a small part of the clone wars. the real problem is that China does not recognize US Patent Law so you really can not attack them with real teeth. So if they go after those that are selling it they hope to minimize the loss in revenue. in other words regulate what people bring in so that there is less counterfeit stuff out there. this is a very tricky area and if they where to take on china they would have to take them to a world court at a price about 10 fold that of going to an US court.

8. Well written and sensible, by the time Doc Dave has his patent in 10 years (IF he does, I seriously doubt it, he is getting in a very long line with his atomizer patent application) it will be irrelavent and Doc Dave will have been lost in the history of vaping.

   I will now buy a couple of clones just to see if his product justifies him in attacking potential customers. Want to sue me?

9. I’m sorry….I don’t see how he’s lashing out at consumers….I see how he’s lashing out at anyone that is creating a business, which BTW….here in America, it means if you SELL a PRODUCT of any sort for ANY type of profit, even if it means you loosing money, you can be held accountable as a “business” and the transaction is considered one as a “business”…here’s the issue…If the product was even just a fraction different, EVEN if it was just a cosmetic difference, it wouldn’t matter…but to make a 100%, and I mean 100% EXACT copy, that’s just criminal…and to support this is criminal in itself, which means if you KNOWINGLY are buying these copies, you might as well be held just as accountable…and to do Co-op’s or to even individually sell, even if it’s just to a group of friends or family…you’re supporting these thieves…and KNOWINGLY doing it…go ahead, disagree with me, I don’t give a rats arse…I don’t speak of opinion, in fact I looked up the laws today, I looked up a lot of information today before I spoke out….OMG that’s right, I am actually one of those people who actually are informed properly, ZOMG YAY Go figure, we do exist! >.> Don’t try to make up words or try to make up stories to support your ability or others abilities to help in what can be viewed as a criminal act not only in the court of law but also in moral values, especially by trying to sit there and say “oh he’s attacking consumers”…grow a pair, grow up…tired of seeing children blabber on about crap they don’t understand or have no clue about or are blindly following….be properly informed and make proper opinions…don’t sit there and just attack attack attack attack…sometimes actually knowing what you’re talking about can make you just a litttttle bit more intelligent you know…some people should try it, it feels great! I promise! It doesn’t hurt! ^.^ Now move on and quit blaming the man for protecting himself and trying to stop thievery…

   1. The funny part is that you say that you speak in fact and post nothing about opinion.

   2. You looked up the wrong information then, because you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. Amazing people like you can even string words into full sentences. Oh wait, you can’t even do that. Your whole post is evidence of that.

10. Try suing any of those manufactures in China like the one Mercedes/bmw tried suing … good luck .. That why you sue the ppl trying to sell the fakes in America and isn’t that what doc dave is doing.. How is he attacking the consumer.. He stopping the group buys cause those guys are working with the distributors. Like Jake smith that setup first group buy.. Those guys are the one that receives and ship to Consumers.. Shame ppl blasting stuff like this without fully knowing the facts

    1. Like I’ve said a few time, I have no problem with Doc Dave pursuing action against retailers or formal distributors (S-corp, LLC). Mr. Smith is an individual organizing a community purchase (which, for the record I am not involved in his or any other Steam Turbine clone purchase). To me, there’s a world of difference between threatening a corporation and a consumer like Mr. Smith. Importing vaping products is not Mr. Smith’s full-time job and he’s not doing it to make money. It’s a community purchase and I believe that going after group-buy runners is misguided bullying. From a PR standpoint, there’s no denying that it looks bad.

       1. It seems to me that Doc Dave is rather shooting Himself in the foot, He may have IP but attacking consumers (Yes, group buyers are consumers not importers, Group buys are usually small scale, single time operations in the same vein as you sharing a shopping trip with a neighbour.) will be seen as bullying by the community at large. It may also cause him the unintentional problem of violating the open source agreement in place when he used the Genisis pattern for his atomiser…

       2. If I were to make a candle with a mesh wick, am I stealing some sort of intellectual property from the inventor of the candle? I really am baffled by all the close-minded comments herein. Let’s take for example, if I made a product, let’s call it BetterThanRPadTV, and leech all the advertising income from internet traffic… Wouldn’t the original creator be upset and want to do something about it? And if an individual organized a group-buy or co-op to accept money from consumers, place orders for counterfeit products, receive counterfeit products and then distribute them…aren’t they running an illegitimate business? If that organizer runs off with everyone’s money, how would those consumers feel once they find out they were robbed of their money? Some of you folks really need to take a look outside of the box and put yourself in Doc Dave’s shoes.

       3. -Comparing a physical product to web site content makes absolutely no sense. That’s easily the dumbest example I’ve seen in this discussion.

          -Group buys are not formal businesses. That’s like saying the guy going out on a beer run for a party is a beer distributor.

       4. But, you didn’t answer my question. How would you feel if someone ripped off your idea, your project, your site, your income?

       5. As I said in the second sentence of the story, his anger is understandable. However, if something like that happened to me using the “your site” example you mentioned, I wouldn’t take it out on the reader or viewer. Like I’ve said countless times in the story and comments, the problem here is that he’s taking it out the consumer.

11. We basically gave this guy what he wants… Followers and more traffic lol so maybe he can profit further.. why stir up the controversy And put up false info I don’t see where he attacks consumer

    1. What false info was posted?

12. The organizer of a group buy is not a “consumer” they are an importer. He is not going after anyone purchasing these counterfeits, only those importing and reselling them.

    1. I disagree. He’s a consumer helping other consumers out by organizing a buy. It’s not a for-profit venture. It’s a community purchase.

       1. If you don’t think the runners of group buys profit from them you are confused.

       2. Not confused at all. The runners I’ve dealt with typically include a three percent incidental fee. That protects them from dishonest chargebacks and unexpected costs. If you think it’s a for-profit venture then you are confused. There are literally thousands of easier ways to make a lot more money.

       3. You can call it whatever you like. It’s importing counterfeit goods.

       4. We were discussing group-buy organizers, not the action itself. I’m not sure why you’re changing the subject.

13. I believe there are much better ways this whole thing could have been handled…
    Being that most “group buy organizers” are doing it to buys something they cannot afford anyways, a successful litigation against a “GB” organizer, could ruin their life…. is that a fair punishment for them? Considering the amount of “hurt” that Dave is “Really” feeling?
    I loose a penny so you must die? That’s what it looks like to me, put under a microscope.
    Loose the hate and the ill intentions (quit playing the victim) and you might be able to focus on a constructive solution, that works with the climate that exists right now.
    Group buys have been around allot longer than e-cigs’ I ran my first GB over 15 years ago and it wasn’t a new idea then……. so when you cut off one head, its replaced with 2 more… *loosing battle*

14. I mean I get it, right down to the rabid fan base. But seriously no one seriously believes that Doc Dave is going to successfully sue and/or collect a nickel from a guy named Bob who organized a co-op. it’s a modded throwing a fit, yelling at the wrong people and making himself look like a world class jerk all at the same time. Just bought a clone on general principle. Self important people irk me. Carry on making difficult to access lists of insanely priced small batches of “premium” atties that 99.8% of vapers will never buy. Don’t worry though 50 times as many people who own, or ever will own the genuine article think you’re an obnoxious prima donna, well done!

15. whether patented or not, whatever action he may take, this will never stop until he can meet the demands of his product. moreover, with the global increasing of value of expenses per year, people will seek for cheaper product so they will still have the “buying power”. this is business. whoever can meet the demands (quantity & price), people will still go to them. one more important thing, if 200usd is consider expensive for an american, what about other country with lower currency? 200usd can be as half as their monthly salary. that is also the reason why they choose to buy clones or counterfeits which are more cheap. please be inform that i dont say it is alright to clone or counterfeit. it is just demands of the whole world to use his product

16. So, k Doc Dave F*ck you :). Try to sell cheaper, you know you can.After reading this, i will def. not change from clone to genuie…

17. I don’t know why the Vapor Joe is so hot there….

    People hate clones, and people promote clones and win respect!

    Who can tell me!

    1. Firstly, I disagree that people hate clones. Some people do and some people don’t. Secondly, I have mixed feelings on Vapor Joe. Some people view him as some sort of champion that’s on a mission to save vapers’ money. Certainly he posts some good deals, but he also posts deals on bad products and lists incorrect information. To me, that shows he cares more about getting affiliate sales revenue more than he cares about genuinely helping consumers. Some people that visit Vapor Joe don’t realize that he makes money on the deals that he posts. While I like that he helps people save money, it would be nice if he were more discriminate and transparent.

18. Doc STOLE the Genesis design from what was originally open source ( Zen is the original thief). He has no grounds to patent another individuals work. Whats happening to Doc at the moment is exactly what he did to someone previously. If you want to stand behind your friend you really should spend the time to educate yourself on the facts so you don’t look like a fool. Lower cost copies fill a price point void in the market, if you can’t fill the void or product enough to supply the demand you will be copied. Lashing out at the consumer is stupid and unwarranted.

19. For one the market is quite tight by now, there´s lots of competition on the market of high end atomizers. An inventor cannot expect the same sales numbers they had a year or two ago, but expenses of development are still the same, meaning even at “normal” business it´s quite hard to sell enough pieces and get into the profit zone.
    For two, this Steam Turbine is hardly a winner, I´ve recently bought 3 high end atomizers, I´ve compared almost all available models before choosing and the steam turbine ended up about last, meaning even without chinese copies Doc would have a very hard time selling his product unless he would lower the price big time.
    For three, in 24 months nobody cares for todays atomizers anymore, the market moves just too fast.
    Doc´s reaction appears to be a sign of feeling helpless.
    He just doesn´t know what to do, after his investment turned out to be a failure, going down the drain a bit more every day.
    By now he must be in a can´t-become-worse-mood, thinking something like: If my business is dead already it doesn´t matter whether or not I kill my reputation.

20. This is a terribly weak arguemnet…why go after the individual…..you buy a steam turbine clone that’s your decision as an individual and so you’re responsible for that decision .you contribute to the theft of another’s intellectual property. your logic is like saying well I can break the law if nobody enforces it…it’s not my fault, I didn’t do anything wrong.
    Doc Dave knows the goverments of china and the U.S. both encourage the theft of small American companies, because the rich of both countries profit from these thefts

    1. Theft? What was stolen and what law was broken? He was going after people armed with a patent application.

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