Welcome to Coffee Talk! Let’s start off the day by discussing whatever is on your (nerd chic) mind. Every morning I’ll kick off a discussion and I’m counting on you to participate in it. If you’re not feelin’ my topic, feel free to start a chat with your fellow readers and see where it takes you. Whether you’re talking about videogames, dinner/drinks with your favorite developers, hand numbered tequila, or Charlie Sheen’s ridiculousness, Coffee Talk is the place to do it.
There’s an interesting Apple vs. Nintendo buzz at GDC 2011. A lot of people in the business thought it was brazen (at best) or dickish (at worst) for Apple to hold its iPad 2 presser around the same time as Nintendo’s GDC keynote. It’s really bigger than that though. Apple has become a major player in games through the iPhone, iPod Touch, and iPad…and it looks like the company is being even more aggressive about staking its claim in the business. But is it going too far?
In addition to Apple’s last-minute iPad 2 scheduling, the company is holding its Worldwide Developer Conference (WWDC) during the same time as E3 2011. Apple has used the event to announce new iPhone models and everyone expects the iPhone 5 (or whatever it’ll be called) to make its debut at WWDC 2011.
Apple stole a lot of Nintendo’s spotlight with its iPad 2 announcement. The Nintendo keynote has been scheduled for months, while the iPad 2 event was announced last week. There were a lot of mainstream television crews covering the iPad event. You figure some of those crews would have been covering the Nintendo keynote — full of 3DS wonder — if they didn’t have to choose. Similarly, I expect the iPhone 5 announcement to take some of E3 2011’s thunder away. Gaming and tech enthusiasts will follow both shows, but the mainstream consumer will likely hear more about the iPhone 5 than any E3 2011 announcements.
What do you think of the matter? Is Apple being “dickish” with its scheduling? Is it being too aggressive with its expansion into the gaming world? Or is it being smart? Maybe Apple doesn’t even care and is just doing things on its own schedule while living in the reality distortion field. I’ve heard GDC attendees call Apple’s presser “underhanded”, “shifty”, and “dickish”. I agree with those assessments, but I’m completely biased since I love the gaming business and GDC. I’d love to hear your opinion on the matter. Please let me know!
[poll id=”104″]
I don't think Apple owes any apology to Nintendo. If it was planned then that is cool and pretty awesome. Should make Nintendo and whoever else step up their game.
So yeah I disagree on the dickish sentiment.
In contrast I just read a blog transcript of Nintendo's event. Kinda lame in comparison. Netflix? Umm, no. 10,000 ATT hotspots? Nah not gonna sit at Starbuck's or McDonalds.
Multifunction is good for them but their eShop policies of machinebound software instead of account bound is a hindrance it would seem. I'm not a fan of DD but I do see value in the distinction.
Iwata's charm doesn't come off in a transcript.
I actually liked the Nintendo press event a lot and really enjoyed hearing Satoru Iwata speak about everything. The average person will likely not care about hearing as much in depth information about Nintendo and the 3DS as I did, or the average gamer would. In that aspect somebody does need to be covering what Apple is saying. However, if they are serious about being major competitors in handheld gaming then I think a little common courtesy is in order, especially when you are talking about a powerhouse like Nintendo. IMO Apple was using the fact that they are a major US company with high sales numbers in the tech world, not necessarily the gaming world, and knew that there would be plenty of people torn between the two. Despite there being a distinction between the two worlds, there is a lot of overlap by consumers, i.e. most gamers pay attention to tech news, most people who pay attention to tech also pay attention to gaming news.
Based on that, I have to vote dick move, but that Apple is also living in its own little world and assumes that everyone will follow them no matter what simply because they are Apple. The problem with that, IMHO is that they are correct to a certain extent.
@Ray
Neither does Jobs so I think my comparison is fair. I was merely talking about substance. I like Iwata. He's an interesting figure to me.
For substance, I think you're being dismissive. The announcements weren't big for you, but more interesting to the general consumer.
@Ray
I'd have thought the gen consumer would prefer iPad news honestly. I saw many mentions of it on US mainstream sites…don't remember any for Big N.
I am being dismissive though. Their product announcement was just not enough for me. Associations with ATT make me cringe when it comes to data use now. It did make me think about how that is something totally cool in Japan (using public wifi in the manner they spoke of) and prob not so much here. Culture differences.
I stand by what I say though. Apple brought a better show today.
I agree that Apple had the better "show", but it was supposed to. Apple had a press conference for a product. Nintendo had a keynote panel that addressed developers…with way too much marketing thrown in.
Ya know, whether they're getting aggressive into the games industry or not, it's still rather dickish. I mean, Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo all hold press events, all the time. And they usually hold them at different times (I assume in part to have the game press's undivided attention). But I've never heard of Microsoft holding a briefing at the same time as Sony to steal their thunder of vice versa (doesn't mean it hasn't happened, I just don't recall it ever happening). For them to strategically be targeting Nintendo's press events for overlap events is just dickish. They're Apple, they'll get their own hype regardless of what day they hold their events.
I was hoping someone would make this point. The "big three" compete, but there's a certain amount of respect. People are arguing that Apple crossed a line with the time of its presser and only announcing it the week before.
There's respect because on some level, they all set out to do the same thing. Apple makes stuff for other applications and then says, "HEY….we can call it a game console too." It's a different mindset, and thus they play by different rules. In this case, their rules are dickish.
I completely agree with that analysis of their mindset. That's exactly what I think separates them from the big three.
Apple always announces a presser a week or 2 ahead of time. Back to the Mac was on short notice as well if I recall.
I think the big 3 console makers are in a game of copycat with one another they want to see what their competition will talk about. I'm not sure how much of it is respect as much as let's see what they are doing so we can marginalize it or copy it!
One thing to really focus on is that the game industry has a tradition of staggering events and such. It's part of their culture but more so than that it's just the way it's been for a long time. Apple on the other hand doesn't care about steeply held traditions. Their design choices for machines and market intrusions are evidence of that.
Hard for me to call the move dickish. I don't know that it's any more dickish of anything that Google does honestly.
Not sure what it has to do with it, but Google does a lot of dickish things.
@Ray
Just a comparison is all. Simply for contrast sakes.
Didn't Nintendo (Iwata) say that they don't regard Apple as competition? I'd say Apple has their attention now.
I find the sparring great. Similar companies and all.
I don't see them as similar companies at all. Apple wants to draw comparisons between themselves and other companies in the gaming industry (Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo). If they really want to be considered a part of that industry and have any part of it then they should have some professional courtesy towards a company that is already considered a legend within that industry. There's sparring (like what you can read on twitter between Kevin Butler and Major Nelson, etc.) and then there is living in your own world attempting to make your own rules for everyone else while you go, like Apple does IMHO.
@BSU
think a bit more broadly on it. They are both known for doing what they want and when they want. Quality products. Strong first party software. Arrogant in many regards. First to market with some ideas…lagging in others. Though that last bit can be applied to many companies.
Courtesy is one thing…but a lot of consumers for whatever reason do not want to see them as a gaming competitor. OK fine…then why the problem with them having an event scheduled at the same time as Nintendo? Apple has their own style and quite frankly it is what helps separate them and creates the culture they need in order to be in their position.
Maybe Iwata pissed on the foot first?
Nintendo is already a gaming company. Apple is the one who is looking to become considered to be part of the gaming industry, therefore they should be the ones showing professional courtesy. Yes your first paragraph is pretty spot on, but you can make anything really accurate if you have broad enough parameters. I don't think you are looking at what each company actually makes closely enough on this one.
The problem with them springing an event on the press and forcing them to have to have some people make decisions between Nintendo or Apple is partially due to what I have just been stating, and the fact that (which I believe we all who are regulars here can vouch for) I mentioned before that most people who pay attention to video games also pay attention to tech related news, and vice versa. There is not necessarily an overlap in what they are selling, rather the consumers who are following them. They are drawing a line in the sand and making people choose who to pay attention to, Nintendo or Apple. I would admit that it is a strategic and well thought out move if that is really what Apple's intent it; however, that does not mean that they showed any professional courtesy in their actions which is why I would again refer to my previous statements on that issue.
Console manufacturers aren't just gaming companies anymore. Consoles are multifaceted devices. The iPad is a multifaceted device. They're both entertainment devices that do a lot of the same things.
Nvm. Ray really said it best I guess. I'd just point out the web browser on the Wii and the 3DS Netflix app. Those aren't games.
There is a big difference there though. One of those is a gaming device that happens to have other multimedia purposes. The other is a multimedia device that happens to play games. There is a huge difference there. That would be like comparing a pickup truck to a sports car. They may have a lot of things in common if you stand way back and look at the huge picture. Each of them have seats, a stereo, steering wheel, brakes, an engine, etc. However, they have extremely different purposes despite having some seemingly major similarities.
@BSU
True…however the types of games (excluding 25 year old franchises) are not so different huh? That would make them more similar when you think about it. Wii Sports and Angry Birds are both very casual and easy to pick up. You can say that about a lot of Nintendo's titles on both the DS and Wii right now. The 3DS will have way more general consumer/casual titles to it. Really where N starts to hurt on this is the fact that an iPad game will cost less than $6 where as the iPhone version will be $1.
Both are multimedia products that can do many things. The lines are beginning to blur.
Would you consider the iPhone and the NGP more closely related? Nevermind the Xperia play device.
You are right, the lines are starting to blur, but I think the intent is different (and a key point in being able to differentiate between things). You are right, the 3DS probably will have more casual type titles if you take away the franchise Nintendo games. But taking away the franchise titles in this debate is like taking out the offensive line in a football game, they are vital to the teams success. Now the price is a big difference in game price, but even with a $250 initial price tag on a 3DS, or about half that for a DSi/lite, that is still about half the price of the cheapest iPad; and it is still cheaper than a decent iPod touch (I would never dream of getting only the 8gb iTouch, but even if I did it is almost the same price as a 3DS).
If you take the example of the 8gb iTouch and you are looking for only casual games, then maybe angry birds is the way to go. But Nintendo has the possibility of franchise games, all of their franchises did start out as one game only that got even better over time. I don't see that happening with Angry Birds, or any of the mafia style games, etc. Now to argue against myself for a moment Tetris is more similar to iOS games and obviously has staying power. IMHO I don't see Angry Birds or any other iOS game having the same staying power.
Enough of all that though. On to the NGP—I would consider the NGP and the 3DS to be more closely related than the iPhone and NGP. The reason is simple. That portable console is still about gaming first, and the multimedia experience second. That intent is the biggest difference that I am concerned about when looking at the differences here.
Apple and Nintendo have more overlap than Apple and Sony Playstation or Apple and Microsoft Xbox, at least from the iOS side of the company.
Lets break down the similarities and differences between the DSi/3DS and the Apple mobile devices of relevance (IPhone/Touch/iPad/iPad2, we will pull from the currently announced gen as well as the next gen of these products). We're not going to get too into specs either, but keep this in the general consumer viewpoint. I'll raise some other questions later.
Similarities:
Touch screen technology
2 Cameras
Plays games on the go
Internet capable
Strong first party developer support
Silly little side apps
Differences
Apple mobile devices do MUCH more things than games.
3D on the 3DS…. however… the iPad 3D as the next, next installment has crazy potential.
Apple is known for something other than games.
Nintendo is the undisputed champion of mobile gaming.
Apple is trying to make a foothold in the mobile gaming market.
Now… is it like Apple to go for the biggest dog on the yard when going into a new market?
My answer: They've done it before… so yes.
Was it dickish of them?
My answer: I think given the long history of the Apple/Windows war and how things have been done there, I could see where Apple would lose track of what indeed is dickish. Plus, they are kind of like the new guys in the market and are trying to get the attention they want. Kind of like the new kid at school or the new guy at a prison. Maybe Apple just viewed this situation wrong. This market is more like a high school and less like a prison (kind of like it's feud with Windows.
Regardless… ultimately it's just business.
I literally laughed out loud with the prison ANALogy.
I literally laughed out loud at the visual editing of ANALogy.
Without knowing their agenda, I can't really say what they were going for; I think they might've been trying to be smart, but they did come off as being immature and dickish with their timing. It was definitely wrong to just say "Hey, Nintendo! After months of scheduling, cramming, and working to make this release perfect, we're gonna jump in a week ahead with our iPad 2 announcement to cash in on the event." If they had announced the date earlier, maybe it wouldn't have been so bad. But a week before? That's just wrong.
according to the national enquirer, steve jobs only has five weeks to live…..time is money
wow no way.
love looking at those covers when checking out. Very informative. I had no idea that Satan's face was emblazoned upon Hurricane Andrew but because of them I am more learned.
Weren't they the first with the Tiger Woods dirt though lol?
i dont know how they got the "five weeks" figure, but hes at the same hospital that treated patrick swayze, right before he died….i really hope its not true though
i'm sure they have a dartboard they throw knives at.
Hmm…yeah I hope that isn't true. He looked ok yesterday though.
Yeah, I'd say Apple's scheduling of the iPad 2 presser was a bit of a dick move, but if it pressures Nintendo into bringing their A game with the 3DS (and hopefully the Wii), I'd say that this is a good thing.
Showed a bunch of people a Japanese 3ds at a Chinatown dive bar last night. The reactions were fantastic.
now that you've seen the 3DS in action. are you impressed by it?
I've seen it a bunch since E3 2010. I've always been impressed for quick sessions. Would love to get a long session in.
oh i thought you did get a long session since you mentioned you were showing it off all night.
I was drunk. My attention span wasn't up for it.
haha!
Obama and Jeb Bush are going to be touring some ghetto high school tomorrow in North Miami. Two things immediately crossed my mind when I learned of this:
1) I'm pissed because now I'll most likely have to find an alternate route to work since I live around North Miami and presidential visits are notorious for halting all traffic on the already-congested city highways if the area is anywhere within a two-mile radius of his royal highness' motorcade. Both Clinton and Bush both ruined two days of my life because of this.
2) At his public school speech, I wonder if I'll be able to get close enough to be able to toss him my middle-school economics textbook, and if I do, how hard will the secret service people tackle me to the ground? I'm thinking that a federal arrest record will totally be worth it if he actually reads the damn thing. Plus, it’ll give me crazy street cred.
-M
Complete dick move, but this is America so every bes' step they game up. I'm a lil drunk lol.
Is it me or does Apple say they don't worry about the competition and then go and make an announcement or some rumor gets leaked and takes away press thunder from the competition?
I was thinking the exact same thing.
-M
Having a blast at the 1up party. Sam will have to forgive me for what I'm doing to his office.
Can you shoot some videos with your phone? I'm curious about the parties.
-M
I think that would break some code of honor. I'll write a story instead.