Apple CEO Steve Jobs made a lot of noise with his comments during the company’s Q4 2010 earnings call. Google, RIM, and TweetDeck executives have refuted some of Jobs’ statements. The executive trash talking is getting good. Grab some popcorn and enjoy.
TweedDeck founder and CEO Iain Dodsworth sent out two tweets addressing Android fragmentation being a nightmare for developers:
Did we at any point say it was a nightmare developing on Android? Errr nope, no we didn’t. It wasn’t.
We only have 2 guys developing on Android TweetDeck so that shows how small an issue fragmentation is
Google VP of engineering Andy Rubin sent out a playful and nerdy tweet addressing Jobs’ assertion that Android isn’t really open:
the definition of open: “mkdir android ; cd android ; repo init -u git://android.git.kernel.org/platform/manifest.git ; repo sync ; make”
RIM co-CEO Jim Balsillie issued a statement responding to Jobs’ diss on the company and the BlackBerry platform:
For those of us who live outside of Apple’s distortion field, we know that 7″ tablets will actually be a big portion of the market and we know that Adobe Flash support actually matters to customers who want a real web experience. We also know that while Apple’s attempt to control the ecosystem and maintain a closed platform may be good for Apple, developers want more options and customers want to fully access the overwhelming majority of web sites that use Flash. We think many customers are getting tired of being told what to think by Apple. And by the way, RIM has achieved record shipments for five consecutive quarters and recently shared guidance of 13.8 – 14.4 million BlackBerry smartphones for the current quarter. Apple’s preference to compare its September-ending quarter with RIM’s August-ending quarter doesn’t tell the whole story because it doesn’t take into account that industry demand in September is typically stronger than summer months, nor does it explain why Apple only shipped 8.4 million devices in its prior quarter and whether Apple’s Q4 results were padded by unfulfilled Q3 customer demand and channel orders. As usual, whether the subject is antennas, Flash or shipments, there is more to the story and sooner or later, even people inside the distortion field will begin to resent being told half a story.
This is great stuff! These guys should all get in a steel cage and for a last-man-standing match. I’d buy that on PPV.
Hmm… I think I'll trust the guy who has and runs the richest tech company in the world. Yeah thanks.
You mean the guy that said the iPhone 4 didn't have a reception issue?
Mine doesn't either. I was dropping calls with ATT before the iPhone 4 came out. Besides, if you are in a good enough area the issue is rather small to nonexistent. I do think them having an ATT tower on their campus skews some perception though :)
Sure, but the fact remains that it has reception problems and Jobs said it didn't. As far as trusting any of them, I'd go with Dodsworth and Rubin over Balsillie and Jobs. Engineers are generally more honest than marketers. At the very least, engineers aren't as good at lying.
I don't think Dodsworth understood what Jobs meant by fragmentation. I also think Jobs was mistaken about Windows being open, but it is arguably more open than OSX or he was trying to dis Google by not directly mentioning them by name.
I'm pretty leery of Google these days. Schmidt really strikes me as disingenuous. I know Rubin isn't Schmidt but it's the whole culture of Google that is coming into question for me. Information is such a commodity these days and nobody has more data than Google.
I should clarify, I trust Jobs to give me the better product of all the companies mentioned. He designs and creates from the enduser perspective. I like that. I used to be very anti apple, but owning and using their products have made me like their ways of doing things. I'm willing to give Apple a pass on suspect reception on the 4 simply because it is their 4th phone and the previous models were by all accounts great devices. I owned 2 of them and had no issue.
My opinions of course. We talked about the Apple earnings call in school today.
How does he not understand it? It's pretty simple. Jobs said that Android fragmentation is a "nightmare" for developers. Dodsworth said it isn't.
Android = blanket statement about hardware and software. That's what I got out of reading the transcript. Maybe I looked in to it too much.
I've never looked into how Tweetdeck works but if it's a database much like Twitter or simply a twitter client then it isn't that hard to make that work on something as simple as a TI calculator.
(i build at least 1 database per week, I do not think they are difficult)
Right, so it isn't that hard but Jobs said it is. He said that different software versions and varying hardware makes development a "daunting challenge" for developers.
And it very well can. The market will determine to an extent what is a good app and what isn't but having to factor in so many variables is more daunting than something that is more focused and controlled. LIke a PC game vs a console game I would imagine. System exclusive vs Multiplat even.
If more than 75% of the market is using a recent version of Android then how many variables are there? Popular apps seem to be doing fine across multiple versions of Android AND other mobile operating systems. Jobs is awesome, but he's full of crap on this one.
@Ray
One way that android has more variables from a developer standpoint is not so much software versions, but phone hardware differences. Look at the android phones that you have used or seen…not all of them have the same size screens. When programming a game to play on android OS you have to take into account all of the different variables of screen sizes when writing the code. Something an simple as Asteroid has tons of variables with where the asteroids will enter the screen from. Writing the code for a specific size screen, or specific ratio screen size is one thing- but android is run on phones with different ratios of screen sizes, meaning that you have to come up with an alternate method of coding in order to account for random screen size variable. And this is simply the most basic example, look at how complex most games are in comparison to Asteroids.
In general though, writing code in that context can be a little different anyways because you are setting an angle for the asteroid to enter a square (or rectangular) screen in a set direction from a specific (or using a random number generator between 1 and 360) direction using the 1-360 as degrees for a starting point. Well if you get a random number close to a corner of the screen (I will pick on the bottom right corner), if you don't code everything right then you will be shooting an asteroid (that will move slightly to the right from when it enters the perimeter) from the bottom right corner to the right and the asteroid will exit on the right side of the screen very quickly instead of going towards the center of the screen where it should go. What you then have to do is figure out how to write the code so that you are setting your perimeter as a circle outside the screen shooting the Asteroids towards the center of the perimeter so that even if an asteroid enters from the bottom right section of the screen and is heading slightly right from where it was set to enter on the perimeter, it will still move towards the center of the screen. Then in addition to issues like this you have to set the code to pick up the perimeters from the specific phone that is being used, and that coding is much harder to write than making it with specific dimensions or ratios (like you could with iOS).
I hope I wasn't too confusing of an example.
I don't see the software as a big issue as much as the complexity with coding in a different style than would be needed for different ratio screen sizes.
That's not the best example. The resolutions Android supports are clearly stated and the SDK allows developers to code for multiple resolutions easily.
Resolutions perhaps, but that does not account for ratios. I am sure the ratios are given as well, but that does not make it any easier. You still have to actually go through and code everything in a different manner in order to satisfy the different ratios that the end product will be used on.
Why would the SDK include resolutions and not ratios? That makes no sense. Again, you don't have to code multiple times for what you're talking about.
Yes that is what I meant by acknowledging that the ratios are probably given as well.
You are right you don't have to code multiple times- but I haven't been saying anything about coding multiple times, just differently. You do have to code in a different manner which takes longer to write and takes up more lines because the code has to cover a lot more "if, then" statements and variables. You have to do everything differently from setting your parameters, arrays, statements, numbers, etc. all in a different way.
Coding isn't really much of an issue here. If anything, art assets are a bigger issue in terms of various resolutions.
As Scotty said in new Star Trek (I'd find a video or audio file, but work site filters suck >:( ):
"I like this ship! You know, it's exciting…"
I don't really know about the 7" vs 10" tablet screen sizes, but the responses about open vs closed are pretty good. I like that definition of open, and the tweetdeck response. That's something that I've been saying and supporting for a little bit.
I don't think Tweetdeck understands the meaning of fragmentation though. There are multiple versions of Android sold commercially with each having an OEM skin applied with different hardware configs. That is the fragmentation. Not too mention the impending rush of Android tablets.
I kinda think Windows will be a better fit for a tablet rather than Android. They have requirements as far as hardware is concerned. We'll see though.
Fragmentation is such a bogus issue, especially in the context of developers, which was what Jobs was addressing. The latest numbers show that more than 75% of Android phones are running 2.0 or later. The vast majority of apps work for the vast majority of users.
I agree. Google has been smart about licensing its market and how it compiles code using NDK and bytecode compiling instead of throwing it all into binary.
Hardware will become more fragmented as more and more vendors or whoever really tries to make a cheaper smartphone for the "casual" user. These cheaper data plans are a possible offshoot market.
My phone runs on Android 1.6 and the only app I can't find right now is Angry Birds but thats ok.
@Ray
The amount of Android powered handsets and Android powered devices is staggering and they keep on coming. There are varying screen res, proc speeds, mem speeds, etc. The hardware will be the fragmentation eventually. Google will keep their end of the bargain as far as the market is concerned.
The only software fragmentation I can see is how he described the iPad decision. In that there is a standard screen size and resolution amongst other things. This allows the dev to write their code once and update if needed in the case of an OS upgrade. I'm looking at this from the perspective of tablets really instead of phones. For some reason I think that will be the big one down the road.
So what? Show me a developer saying that it's daunting. I haven't seen a notable developer speak out on the issue.
So what? I just told you how it can be daunting. You are thinking way too narrow on this. Devs have always complained about writing for more than 1 platform from time to time. Hell, Carmack and Newell both said the same thing about writing for the PS3 as opposed to the cheaper MS system.
What is the problem here Ray? I just told you I am thinking future wise as that market explodes. Apple has the advantage in that Apps can run natively on Touch, Phone and iPad. If you insist on something being named right this instant then no I can't. Unless you want to count the dev who does Angry birds who isn't putting his App out for the Win7 phones.
The problem is I think your answer is hollow, especially since you've played both sides of the argument. You said Android development is daunting. Earlier, in the context of TweetDeck, you said it's simple. Again, show me a reputable developer that's having problems with this imaginary fragmentation issue.
No I said that if Tweetdeck is nothing but a database then it is simple. I also said that I'm not sure exactly how Tweetdeck operates under the hood. How is that both sides? If you have never built a database then I guess how you can extract that meaning. If Tweetdeck is written and compiled in a non C language then porting it to iOS or if it is based on Objective C for that matter would be more of a hassle. How is that not so? Most good programmers will tell you that programming is programming the rest is syntax however most programmers aren't business people so the cost of conversion isn't what they are strongest at. I'm looking at the whole picture while you are taking the tweets of nerds as gospel right now. I'm not trying to be rude Ray.
I also gave you the Angry Birds dev as far as an example off the top of my head.
The Angry Birds example on WP7 has nothing to do with anything.
Again, this imaginary hardware fragmentation issue isn't a problem today. It's pure conjecture that it will be a problem in the future. That's what I'm basing my argument on, not developer tweets. I don't see how this will suddenly be an issue next year, especially as development tools improve.
Don't tell me I'm basing anything off of "tweets of nerds" when you're buying into Jobs' bullshit argument. Again, Jobs says there are issues today. There's no evidence of that.
OK you two are getting too into now. Don't make me send you to your rooms >_>
Joking aside, programing is based on the OS. Yes iOS is the "same" on multiple hardware and Android has slight modifications made to it by certain hardware manufactures. However, those hardware manufactures could not or would not change Android in any meaningful way that would affect most apps. They don't want to break something that would cost them a lot of time and money to fix. Open means you break it you bought it in business terms. Google isn't going to update Android to work with their modifications after all.
I say this is why Android wins…lol
http://www.kontraband.com/pics/24399/The-Picture-…
Find a dev complaining about programing games for the PC. Since hardware is the issue then PC gaming should be a nightmare no one would touch unless forced to. Yes, some complain about Windows, but hardware is one I haven't heard before.
@BSU
The solution is not to program based on the actual screen and just render the game up or down to fit the screen. Just because you are playing your game on a 1080p TV doesn't mean it is rendered in 1080p. Most games are rendered in 720p and upscaled to fit larger TVs and even ones that support 1080p aren't always rendering 1080p worth of polygons.
@Ray
Because Jobs has a point. What about the devices that do not receive OS upgrades? The simple Android devices?
I can see that I'm pissing you off and neither one of us will budge. Beer time?
I just skimmed through all the comments and all that caught my eye was "Beer time".
Yes, please!
Hell, I'll argue with you all you want if it will get me a pint of lager… possibly two depending on how aggravating you are with all your annoying facts and logic; you know, things that have absolutely no place in anything I argue.
-M
P.S.- Did you know that 47% of all statistics are made up?
I disagree that he has a point. He's spinning and I think you're buying into it. He's saying it's a problem now. It's clearly not. You're saying it will be a problem in the future. You might be right, but that's pure speculation. You have no idea what Android development will be like in a year.
Lastly, I find it ridiculous that you dismissed the founder and CEO of TweetDeck as an Internet nerd, implying that he has some kind of bias. Why would he? That makes no sense at all. Millions of iPhone, iPod, and iPad users already have TweetDeck. The Android version just went out of beta and onto Android Market last week.
Is it on BB App World??
Absolutely did not indicate Tweetdeck had bias.
Just because he's a CEO doesn't put him above nerd/asshole/creep/whatever adjective level. There are many who are less than appealing.
For instance, I think Ballmer suffers from head in sand disease. Jobs is an egomaniac. Zuckerberg seems sleazy.
Dodsworth is a developer. He actually codes, unlike Ballmer or Jobs. You're discounting his opinion for whatever reason.